This is the first of an interview series I’m conducting with games professionals who also teach part-time as adjunct faculty. Natalie is a colleague of mine at the NYU Game Center who I’ve known for a few years. I’ve been a fan of hers since she casually handed over one of the coolest business cards I’ve seen, that simply said, “Natalie Asport – Vehicles and Weapons”.
She’s an immensely talented games artist and educator, and she was kind enough to answer some questions about how teaching fits into her wider creative practice.
Bio
Natalie is a video game developer, artist, writer, educator, songwriter, and musician. She studied computer animation at Full Sail and she currently serves as a Senior Prop Artist at NetherRealm Studios (home of the Mortal Kombat franchise). Before working at NetherRealm, Natalie was an Environment Artist and a Vehicles and Weapons Artist at Avalanche Studios, working on AAA titles including Just Cause 3, Just Cause 4, RAGE 2: TerrorMania DLC and Contraband. She has also worked as a primary 3D artist for Visuals for Law, creating CG medical models of the human anatomy to use in court cases, and as a freelance VFX Artist on various creative projects. Natalie serves as an adjunct professor at NYU Game Center teaching “3D Modeling for Games,” a course she co-designed. She co-authored the technical book Beginning 3D Game Assets Development Pipeline (Apress, 2022) and has been selected as a speaker at various game development events including Playcrafting: Women in Games and NYC ACM SIGGRAPH.
https://www.natalieasport.com
Instagram: @guitartist93
LinkedIn: @NatalieAsport
Interview
This interview was conducted on August 2nd 2023, and has been edited for length and clarity.
Where do you currently teach, and what do you teach?
At NYU Game Center, I teach 3D Modeling for Games.
What else, if anything, have you taught in the in the past, or have you taught anywhere else?
I haven’t taught any full-on classes. I guess I’ve done talks and lectures prior, but never specifically for 3D modeling for games. It was mostly like, ‘breaking into games’. So nothing really technical. And even though I might have been on panels to represent being a 3D artist, I never got to go into the weeds of it in the way that I do here in my class. So even though I could talk about 3D modeling and Maya, the questions that I would be asked is more general career advice like, “How do you break in? How do you deal with work life balance?”, and all of that. So yeah, this would be my first full-on teaching experience.
How long have you been teaching?
I’ve been teaching since 2018, spring semester.
How did how did you start teaching?
Okay, because it’s quite interesting. I don’t know if you know this story.
Yeah, so apparently Eric Zimmerman and Robert Yang reached out to one of my senior managers at Avalanche Studios, New York, and had asked if… apparently they needed, trying to remember because this is not what ended up happening, but, they were asking for, if anybody in the team would be interested in being a consultant for a class that they’re trying to expand their department, and what classes they teach, and I think it was specifically 3D modeling and 3D art, if anybody wanted to be a consultant and basically help support, and make sure that the curriculum’s going in a way that pertains to the real world industry and everything. And then my senior manager reached out to the 3D art team specifically, so, any environment character artists, all the 3D artists, all the artists in general. And I was like, “Oh, this sounds really cool. I would love to help.” And I thought, in my eyes, I was like, “Okay, 10 of us are gonna respond by the end of the week and we can all share”, so I was figuring okay well, we’ll probably go and visit the school and there’ll be like five of us. So I said, “Yes, I’d be totally interested, send them my information.”
And so then like a week later Eric reached out to me. And he was explaining to me what the plans were. And he’s like, “Have you taught before?” I’m like, “No.” “That’s cool, okay, so yeah, you’d be willing to help us out? And we’ll pay you, and you know, if you need help with like, designing the curriculum, yeah, we’d be happy to make sure that it’s going the right way, that it’s a pipeline that that works.” And then it’s kind of like, “Okay, well, you’re gonna work with Robert Yang and actually, you’re gonna help him design this curriculum.” And then I’m like, “Okay, sounds great!” Then I’m looking around me, like, I was asking, “So… is there any other Avalanchers?”, he’s like, “No, just you.” I didn’t realize. Because what had happened was, I found this out years later, was that I was the only one on my team, there was like twenty of us, that actually had responded. And I was disheartened, honestly. I was like, what? I thought everybody had reached out, and then, you know, at a certain point, maybe didn’t have time. But, nope! I was the only one that reached out. Shame on my team, [laughs].
And so I ended up working with Robert, and Robert’s like, “Is it okay, because you know a lot more about the subject, is it okay that you lead the design of the curriculum? And I’ll just be of support.” And he provided me all the resources I needed, he was a gem, and you know, made sure I was prepared. But then it dawned on me, I was like, “Wait a second, I’m designing a curriculum?” And they were like, “Yeah, we’ll pay you for your time, and we’ll show it to the board. We’ll get in front of the board, and if it doesn’t get in by this time we’ll shoot for next year.” And we were like, “No, we’re gonna make the deadline, and we’re gonna get it approved.” We’re like, no, now I was like full on in. And then at one point Robert’s like, “You designed it. Seems like you know what you’re talking about. Do you want to teach it?”
So that’s… I feel like there’s no absolute way to condense that story anymore. Because that’s what happened! I was not expecting to teach. I did not reach out to them. Yeah. It was just the right place right time, and nobody else on my team reaching out.
That’s so funny. And comparing it to the panels and things you’d done previously is really interesting- I hadn’t thought of that kind of connection. But it’s true, it seems like a big leap, but I could absolutely see how, “Oh, I’ve done public outreach education, so it’s not so big a leap to, at least to help with a course”, the initial thing that got you in.
Exactly. Like it’s not the same, but there are some skills that you acquire from public speaking that definitely help. For sure, it’s just like one out of a lot of other things. But yeah, that was the transition, I guess.
So that was how you started teaching. What keeps you adjuncting, how come you decided to keep with it?
I think every semester is different. It kind of feeds into this different purpose. But for me I think, the first one, I think for everyone, everyone’s first semester is always overwhelming. There’s a lot that you learn.
And it was just such a new experience, and honestly it made me realize that there’s this void that when you’re working in the industry you don’t realize there’s a void there. I mean it’s so cliché. But when I, the first time I was teaching, I saw a lot of inspiration from students that I was missing. Like there was this thing of, “Wow, everything’s so exciting! And I want to learn it.” And that’s always been the case for me in my field of work. But when you’re surrounded by… we all tend to get kind of jaded in different ways. And when you’re working with a team, let’s say, of senior artists, they don’t look at it from the same way.
So it was my 5th year in the in the industry, in the game industry, and I was already feeling that way. And so when I started teaching, I realized there was a reason, I can’t look jaded. Like, you can’t. You don’t want to represent that. Even though they want you to be honest. But it’s funny, cause I’ll get that question like, “Do you feel jaded?” And I have. And from students I heard, “It’s good to see someone passionate about what they do.” And I was really happy that, when I heard that feedback. That my passion made them passionate, even though they personally, some of them, you know, they join the class, and they don’t really want to do 3D modeling. And they even, I’ve told them like, be honest, and it’s like, “Oh, yeah, this is not what I want to do. But, for some reason I was super hyped, cause you were hyped.” And that meant a lot to me. And I realized that kind of gave me the energy to go into my work, and it kind of, selfishly, revitalized my own way of working, at work.
So that was at the very start. Even though it was quite a balance, I had to learn how to really shuffle things around so that way I could work 100% in my full time, and still also give the energy I need to when I was teaching the class. And then just, I don’t know, like in later years I realized it. Both working full time and adjuncting really sharpened my skill set on both sides. Like I was seeing things from a different perspective when I went to my full-time work because of my teaching. And then working, and going through the challenges, it allowed me to bring it to students. And these were things that I wish I had from my instructors, when I was learning this skill set. I didn’t go to school for game art. I went to school for computer animation. But there was no one that was working full time in the industry that they’re teaching. I mean, like, just coming back from work and teaching the class. It was like, maybe they were, and then now they’re teaching for a year. Or they’re doing like, I guess more smaller gigs or something. And some of my teachers, too, were retired. So they worked on Lilo and Stitch and amazing projects, but it was like, it’s been such a long time. So, I felt like this was my opportunity to give a different perspective, and hopefully that would help bleed into the curriculum.
I felt like I needed to, like, I wanted to share that and pass that down, and inspire the next generation of artists. And even if they don’t become a 3D artist, they’re gonna take a lot of what they learned and apply it to other things.
So. That’s what, I mean, that’s a long-winded answer. But, yeah, hopefully, that helps!
Yeah no, totally makes sense. And you’ve already alluded to this. But what is the work do you do besides adjuncting?
So yeah, like, outside of full time work, or do you want me to talk about my full time?
Oh, I guess both!
So yeah, because you might know but for the interview’s sake: I work as a Senior Prop Artist at NetherRealm Studios, based in Chicago. But I’m working 100% remote. And I work on a lot of different things. Props could extend from environments to… I mean, it’s everything. Like I work with the environment team and I snag environment art pieces to set up for the prop pipeline. Maybe characters are gonna be holding it. Maybe they’re interacting with it. I could be working on like Scorpion’s chain or Johnny Cage’s sunglasses. Down to, like, creatures that are coming into the fight line. And did I say Mortal Kombat? Because that probably should have been mentioned. So that’s what I work in fulltime.
And then outside of work, I also do freelancing. This could be an array of things, like, I’ve done logo design, I’ve done VFX on music videos. Let’s see. I’ve done creature design, so like anything, I do commissions and but I kind of do those very sparingly because they could take a lot more time, and, I know the whole freelance and commission gig, I don’t know how people sustain on that. But I’m able to take on a few projects here and there.
And then I also perform. I’m a musician, songwriter, and I do those types of things as well, sparingly.
I think that’s it.
I forgot how too many awesome skills you have! As you were saying them, I remember you shared a music video you worked on and I remember being floored by it. But in the moment I had forgotten that, all the different things you work on!
Yeah, I even forget too sometimes.
Well, and you already spoke to this a little bit as well. But how does the teaching work that you do impact all the other work that you do, all the non-teaching work that you do?
Hmm. Well, on one end, it allows me to see things from a different perspective. Like, if I’m teaching in front of students and I’m trying to get a message across, or I’m trying to have them understand a concept. That actually helps me, let’s say, with performing, cause I’m talking to my audience. Things like that. Like public speaking, it definitely helps.
But also being patient and being open and listening. That has helped me, oddly, as a performer, and also as a songwriter. So it’s like, it’s weird how things kind of bleed in. Which is why I don’t condone this lifestyle to everybody. I think a lot of people feel like it’s very overwhelming, but that’s why I kind of like taking in more and doing more, because all I see is that everything is kind of interconnected. Even though things might seem very separate. It’s almost like a cheat sheet. It’s like the more you do different things, the more things become easier, because this is the answer to this or this might provide an answer to this. I don’t know how to explain it, but it’s really kind of nice to be able to feel like… While the world is very complicated, the more you immerse yourself in it, and you get to know many different people from different sectors of the world like, let’s say, students in a classroom is going to be different than maybe random people at a at a venue or like a dive bar that you’re gonna be performing at. But at the end of the day, we are all human, and we’re trying to learn different things. Whether or not we know that. And so that’s a deep answer.
How it kind of plays in with my other work, if I’m teaching. So, for example, in a month the semester starts up again. I tend to, because I’ve learned in the past, I don’t like to stretch myself too thin. I definitely do not take on, let’s say there are shows happening. Whether it’s attending or actually playing a show, I tend to do that before the semester starts. So it’s mostly just me teaching and me doing my full-time work.
That said, sometimes just getting immersed in the subject that I’m teaching and working in that can be overwhelming. That’s when I might just do my hobbies, anything that’s not going to add more stress. Because preparing for a show, although I love performing, but everything leading up to that moment is a lot of preparation. It’s very similar to preparing for your next class. I don’t want to just have a whole chunk of my life, in the semester, to just be preparing to present things. Whether it’s going on a stage and playing songs or preparing for a lecture, I try to divvy that up. So you know, I might get into running again, because I love running. So things that are completely different is what I like to do during my time of adjuncting.
Especially if it’s so different from sitting in front of my computer for 8 to 10 hours a day. Like, if I’m gonna do that and then I’m also gonna spend hours on, well, unfortunately it’s not talked about, but on administrative work, as an adjunct.
People don’t realize that even though you might be teaching one class, you’re still giving some time to grading, or providing feedback, or responding to students. Something that’s a very simple question, you want to get them unstuck. Because if you don’t respond to it, you’re not gonna see them in the next four days. And they tell us this, like, in the NYU Game Center, I don’t know about elsewhere, but they emphasize to me, “Minimize the amount of time you spend outside of the classroom.” But it’s kind of impossible. You still have to prepare, and you have to be there, you kind of have to be present. Otherwise, it’s just, they’re like a hundred percent on their own. I know they have a TA and I’ve been very fortunate to have really good TAs in the past. But still, I just don’t want to, I can’t just abandon ship and then say, “Nope, see you next lecture!” which could be a week away.
So yeah, there’s a lot of hours that go into it. And that’s where I’m at right now, August is my month of preparation. I’m starting to prepare for the class. And now, if friends want to reach out to me, it’s like, “It’s summertime! Let’s…” “Nope! I told you last month, this is it.” I’m fine with it, like I think, you just have to acknowledge the lifestyle that comes with it.
Well, administrative work is maybe a good segue too. Are there any annoyances that you have about adjuncting, or are there things that you don’t like? What are the least favorite things about adjunct teaching?
Right, you know, grading. I don’t like grading. I remember actually that you had done a study of like, no grading? Or having the students self grade? I thought that was pretty awesome, and you gave like your findings, and it was like, you were even surprised that they graded themselves more honestly than, I guess, most would assume they would. And that’s fair.
With my class, it’s very technical, so luckily it’s not like 100% a fine arts class. Or something where, you know, everybody has a different opinion. It’s like, if the UVs on the model are not functional, you’re not going to have anything, and that’s obvious. And you won’t be able to get your message, or your visual art, your design across. So that kind of stuff is easy to grade.
I remember the first semester, I had way too much of a breakdown, and I remember Eric telling me like, “It’s an art class, focus on the creativity, and then don’t grade them too harshly on it.” So really it’s almost impossible to get a low grade in the creativity of the breakdown, in the rubric. But the technical is where I dock points. Sometimes it’s like, you didn’t even provide the file that I need to look at. And you didn’t provide screenshots. So I can’t see what your work is. So send it, like, that’s when I would reach out, “Can you please send this to me because it’s gonna tank your grade for this assignment.” I’ve iterated it over the years. But it’s so much easier and much more straight forward, and I’m able to be like, “Unless you make the most boring 3D model, you’re gonna get a hundred in the creativity portion. But you have to follow these specific points on the technical side to get the correct points.” Otherwise, it’s like, impossible. Because I’m just never sure what to grade you on.
Hmm. I get what you I mean. Because yeah I obviously have, you know, feelings about ungrading and stuff like that. But I wanted to see, that’s the thing that you don’t like? Like, is it grading the non-technical part is you’re saying what you don’t like, that kind of ambiguous creativity portion?
So it was that. And then I realized, unless it’s absolutely boring, or you could tell it’s soulless, then… The thing is, I’ve had students who I’ve had to ask later on, like I’ve seen former students, and we would talk about these things. And I’m like, “You know, I didn’t know what to do with your project.” I didn’t want to tell them. And then they told me, they’re like, “Yeah, I was very overwhelmed with other classes. I just literally submitted nothing, it was not a good work.” And I was like, “Thank you for telling me that, because I didn’t know what to do here.” Like it was, I don’t know what I was looking at. The technicals were good, the UVs were good. The textures were good. But I had no idea if it was a fine art piece. But I didn’t know, it was like a mishmash of… It was like a dirt pile. It was literally a dirt pile that they had worked on for four weeks. And I was like, I don’t want to put a hundred percent, because the technicals were all right. And the creativity, I was like, am I shallow for not seeing, maybe, like a Rorschach image? And then they told me later, they’re like, “Yeah, I just threw that in. It was just a dirt pile.” And then that’s where I docked all the creativity, I think I gave like a 50. But a 100% in the technical. And I just felt bad. I was like, this person cannot get a hundred. Because somebody made, they tried making a car in four weeks. And I’m gonna dock them for not having the right material, like they didn’t know. But I tell them, “It’s not a bad thing to be ambitious. But, in this class, you’re okay to be safe. You’re not going to get criticized for being safe.” You’re just trying the technicals in itself, and they’re very underrated. People don’t think of how technical 3D modeling and 3D art is. And it could take years to really, not just master, but to wrap your head around. So I’m like, “It’s okay. You don’t have to be ambitious, but if you want to, you can. Just scope out what you’re doing. Take your time to plan this out.” So I think that’s why.
Aside from trying to figure out how to grade art, and everything just in general, when even putting that aside, grading is just… tedious. It’s just tedious. And then what I like to do is, I give feedback. I don’t send the feedback to everyone. Because, this also I found as an adjunct, it took way too long, and I noticed a lot of students don’t even read the feedback. So what I actually do is I write the feedback, and I do it in concise bullet points. For everything. So I could go back if students ask me, because I’ll let them know later on, especially on the midterms and finals, I’m saying “If you have any questions about the grade that you received, reach out to me and we’ll go through it.” If they do, and I do have students that reach out to me, then we could go over, and I’ll send them all my bullet points and the breakdown. But in the past I used to send every single one to them. And I realized, a lot of them did not even look at my feedback. It took at least an hour to send the feedback to each one. I don’t know if I’m just slow at writing emails, but just trying to make sure I’m sending to the right email, saying, “Hi, this is your feedback…” And to realize, like, 3 out of the 20 actually looked at it. And I just noticed that, this is something that I think in terms of as a part-time instructor, this is the cutting corners that you kind of have to do. Because just sending all of that to everyone, it took the hour or two away from preparing for the next class. Or it’s taking away from things that I knew were gonna be more beneficial. I’d rather write all of this out, don’t have to worry about grammar being correct or anything. Just write out my thoughts, and then I’ll save it in my document. And I’ll just emphasize throughout the weeks, or whenever I can, like a “Heads up everyone, I do have your breakdown, so let me know if you would like it.” And I’ll just emphasize that. And that’s when students would reach out to me. And I’m like, these are the ones that want to know. And I tell them they don’t have to write a whole long thing of like, “Hey can you… this is the reason why I want to know the breakdown.” I’m like, “Just message me and say, ‘Breakdown.’ Or message me and say, ‘Why?’. Just write a one word response.” It allows me to not have to waste time sending it to people, to students that are just absolutely uninterested.
I think that’s a great tip! Having feedback be opt in.
Yeah, because for a while I was like, this is a bad thing, like I should be sending this, because it’s necessary. And I’ve had other professors that have said no, they’ll always provide it. But I feel like then that’s pressure on those of us who don’t have all the time, and we’re trying to find places where our time is more valuable. And I mean, like, after the 12th time of… like I used to write really in-depth feedback, and I’d put pointers and everything. For every one of my students, let’s say, of 23 students. And it’s kind of disheartening to go around the room and like 5 people in one class would show me what they’re working on. And this was like a week and a half later from the feedback. And this is after I messaged everybody, I sent an announcement, “Just to remind you, I did provide feedback, in this folder.” And to go around the room, and they’re showing me something, they’re like, “I’ve been stuck on this for a week.” Okay. I’m pointing at it like, “Yeah, because you didn’t fix this here. That was what I said in my feedback. Did you see the feedback?” And they’re like, “Wait. Oh, feedback! Oh, no, I didn’t see it.” And that bothered me because there’s another student right next to them that absolutely just floored it, like they did amazing. And they read all my feedback on their end. And I remember then they were asking me like, “Oh, what could I do here now?” And I was thinking in my head, I wanted to write that in your feedback. But I was so busy spreading out the feedback. And then I realized I was inadvertently not helping them as much as I could, because I was giving it to… And you know, it’s just the reality that you’re not gonna have every student that’s a hundred percent. I mean, everybody, they have so much going on. But with that said, you’re not going to have a hundred percent engagement from everybody across the board. And so trying to figure out who is going to be the most engaged, and then really helping them. That becomes my priority. So yeah, that’s how I do that with the feedback.
Yeah, I think that’s great tip. Because I definitely struggle with that same problem of feedback. Feedback is so time consuming. To really think about the student’s work, and not be too critical, like you want to make sure that you’re finding the things that they did right to highlight to them, and stuff like that.
Yeah, the sandwich, what is it, the compliment sandwich?
Yeah. It’s very laborious. And so finding ways to kind of optimize how you’re doing that, I think is a really smart idea.
Well, that’s a good segue, then into my next question. What advice would you give somebody who’s thinking of picking up a class for the first time? I’m not sure the exact scenario here, but they’re about to teach a class maybe, or they’re thinking about it. Do you have any pointers that you would share?
Well, funny thing is, I did not teach last semester. Jeff Horal, he ended up teaching. I forgot where he works, but he’s a 3D environment artist. And so he took over the class last semester. And he made it, because I work primarily in Maya for my version, he tailored it to a Blender workflow. And I was giving him tips. Because this was his first time teaching a full class. He also, like me, he had done one off lectures and sessions. I think he was even a little bit more ahead of me in the sense that he’s done 3D workshops before.
And I gave him advice the way that Robert Yang had given me advice, which is: Don’t get too overwhelmed. Don’t feel like you need to do everything all at once. Especially if you’re just starting.
I don’t know how common it is, it doesn’t sound like it is to me, where you teach the curriculum you designed. And I think that might add a little bit more pressure. Because when you design a curriculum, you have this idea of how it’s going to be taught. So then you’re putting the pressure on you. Versus if you’re handed a curriculum, you’re like, “Okay, I’ll just have to figure out how I’m going to teach this.” You don’t know have any notion of how it was taught before.
Don’t like feel like you have to be every student’s cup of tea. And also, don’t feel like you fail them, if not every student… I think that was overwhelming to me in the beginning. You want to be the everything for every student. And it’s okay if your teaching style is not gonna fit with every student. Be communicative and… I’m not going to say ask questions of students like, “Hey how’s my teaching style?”, but, just don’t overwhelm yourself, I think is the big thing. Don’t overwhelm yourself. Students, how they think of you is not necessarily the most important. It’s just to be present. And to have your mind clear. And whatever is going to help you get the material across the best way that you can do it. And not be too stressed on that.
I feel like that to me is what, especially when I was talking to Jeff, is like, things that are out of your control you’re worried about. You know, like “I don’t know if students are gonna understand me.” And the thing is, I think there’s always going to be students that are going to really understand you, and that like you’re a surprised at how much they understand you. And they listen to every single word you say. And that could also be a little nerve-wracking in itself that they’re like hanging onto every single word you say.
Just manage your time, manage your time well. Again, you’re not going to get to everything. If you’re running behind, just move it to the next class. If you have a section that you were trying to get in on that class, and it’s 10 min before the class ends, consider just wrapping up and saying, “We’ll get to it in the next class.” It’s okay to be fluid and change the class.
This is especially more, for when I was when I was starting, I feel like you really have to get down time management. It’s just such a… This is where this plays into other things, like I’ve learned to manage my time way more, from teaching. Over even seasoned professionals in the industry. I realized, they don’t know, and I didn’t, I didn’t think about it too much. But like time boxing. Time boxing yourself. At the same time you’re teaching, you’re telling students how to time box themselves in their work, you’re time boxing how you’re going to teach these lessons. And just don’t be too hard on yourself with that.
Let me see if there’s anything else. There’s so much like that I’m thinking in my head right now, and I’m trying think of what’s the most important ones. Because I think for me, it might be super obvious, but, and I’m just thinking like, oh, no, it’s not that important.
Like what?
Yeah, I’m trying to think. If it doesn’t have to be super paramount… like I mean, oh, just having a notebook. I used to write down, I don’t do this anymore because I kind of have it memorized, so for me it’s not necessary now, but I used to have a notebook and I would have written, not only a digital copy, of the syllabus and the curriculum and everything. But I would write down notes of like, “What am I teaching today?” This is my preparation before the class, this is what I’m teaching today, and if we didn’t get to a certain thing last week, this is what we’re getting to this week. Even writing down… sometimes you’ll have a melting pot of students, like international students, and sometimes just writing down how to make sure you’re pronouncing everyone’s name right? Like simple things like that.
Icebreaker challenges. I feel like if you don’t have an icebreaker, challenge, students don’t know each other, and I’ve heard stories of instructors where they’re close to the end of the semester, and students are still not talking to each other. I sometimes have the opposite problem, like everybody’s just talking to each other, even by the second class, because of my icebreaker questions. There’s a lot of them, and I tell them to answer as many or as little as they want. But when they start getting into their favorite games, or what made them want to learn game design, then you can’t stop them from talking, and that’s what I love. They’re talking about what’s passionate to them, what brought them into the class. If I could get them to talk about what they’re passionate about, and also inspire them to be motivated, to go through the work, and have friends, then that is absolutely perfect. So, you know, trying to get student engagement. Get them hyped up. I think that’s important.
It’s not just you lecturing to them. Have them ask questions. And it’s okay to have the conversations that are… don’t avoid any conversation. Don’t avoid anything, whether it’s… AI, or, how do you incorporate more diverse characters, or, you know, talking about sexism in the industry or something. I don’t bring it up, but if students ask and they’re curious, or they’re concerned, if they want to get into the industry. We’ll have it apply to the material I’m teaching. I think with any adjunct, if you have people that are talking about what they’re interested in, teaching. But they’re nervous about the conversations that are coming up. It’s like, just welcome it. Most of the time you’re gonna have students talking to other students in the class. And you could cut into it and cut it anytime. Because you’re the professor, you could say, “Okay, let’s move on, we’re behind.”
I think engagement is very important. If as an adjunct, or if you’re just starting teaching, trying to welcome that and having that environment is, I think, very very important. It might not be in your current work environment. Like it might be very different. That’s what I’ve noticed when I was starting out teaching. It was a very different environment, as I mentioned before, like how students were very inspired, and that was a different environment than, let’s say, more jaded atmosphere that I had at work. I think it’s good to try to foster an environment that you’re not used to seeing in your current job. I think that’s part of your role is to not bring that in. I think if you’re acting like… I don’t know why teachers would want to do this, but if they’re like jaded or they feel they’re in that era of not appreciating their work or their field, I don’t know why they would pursue teaching it, but hey. Like I mean everybody’s different, different life, but I don’t want to do that. I want to show that’s thriving, it’s brilliant, and it’s because I’m not bringing that culture into the classroom. I’m bringing my passion of what I’m teaching.
That, to me, that’s very obvious, and I feel like I didn’t even need to explain it, and especially to you. I feel like you’re also coming in with like, you wouldn’t do that to students, but at the same time, I feel like maybe it’s not quite obvious to other people. Students pick up on it, like if they if they see that you’re talking about it. If you’re talking in a monotone voice, and you don’t sound interested, how are they gonna want to be? And I’ve talked to students about this. They said that when they see that maybe the instructor inside is super passionate, but outside, they look very bored of what they’re teaching, they’re like, “It’s very hard to want to be as excited for it.” When I come across very dry material that I’m teaching, I’m like, “I’m terribly sorry for this next portion,” and they laugh. There’s a slack channel where we have “UV Music”, which is, all the students add the tunes that they listen to while they’re UVing, because it’s super tedious. For one class it was just super alive. People were posting like House music and Techno and Heavy Metal. It was great. So to acknowledge like, “Okay, this might be boring, but it’s not you, and it’s not me. It’s part of it.” And then you apparently get a new wave students that are actually excited about that thing, like now it’s no longer boring. They’re like, “It’s not boring to me.” I’m like, “Well, I’m glad you don’t think it’s boring. That’s awesome.”
I definitely agree that idea. Entire classes I’ve taught have basically just been like, “Here’s some stuff I think is really cool and we’re gonna talk about it.” And then, the fact that I’m interested in it, it has this kind of infectiousness. If you’re talking about something you’re passionate about, then other people want to be passionate as well.
Do you ever find that though, to be draining? Because it is performative. I often feel this way, that I’m putting on this kind of performance for students. And it can be sort of emotionally draining because of that presence and stuff that you need to bring to it. I was wondering if you feel similarly?
It’s a good point. It reminds me of performing on a stage. And that actually is perfect, because there are days where you’re like, I just can’t. I just can’t do this genuinely. So you have to perform a little. Yeah, it is, it can be draining. Which is why you have to really balance yourself.
It’s like, right after that class. I used to do it in the nights. And I would just be like, my day would be ended. But there’s also a time where (unfortunately I didn’t know any better, and this is where work life balance is important), I would set up dinners with friends and partners. They would be like, “Yeah, you’re out of it.” I’m like, “Yeah, no, no kidding, like I spend eight hours working. And then I go into here for three hours. I’m on my feet because I chose to stand while I’m talking, and I don’t want to sit down. I’m tired. Of course, I don’t want to perform anymore.”
But now I have morning classes, and then I work, and I find that oddly easier. To be teaching, going in, leaving at 7 in the morning. Because when I work, I’m solo. If I have no meetings, I’m just like, stoically zombie-like looking at the screen for eight hours. I think that’s why it’s easier for me. I was wondering why that’s easier for me, to teach, and then do a full day’s work.
You have to figure out how to be able to present a certain way. And then before that, like, you’re probably up till- hopefully not, but especially if you’re new to teaching- you might be up till 4 in the morning, making sure that the class is prepped. Like if you’re working in Google drive, make sure everything’s accessible and so that way you don’t go in and in front of the class saying like, “Oh drop everything here,” and everybody’s like “I don’t have permissions,” or “where’s the folder?”, or “You don’t have my name in there.”
[Laughs] Too real!
Yeah, I’m glad you understand. Cause the thing is, as an adjunct too, most likely you don’t have any… You’re not associated daily with other faculty or adjuncts. So your problems, you’re not sure who else is experiencing these issues or these challenges. So yeah, I’m glad you said that.
On that note, do you ever find yourself isolated? Within the wider program, or feeling like you’re not getting the feedback or support that you need as an instructor?
Yeah, I mean, now I’m thinking I like to be involved, and I like to… How do you put it? I like to be more involved in what, let’s say the faculty is doing a meeting. Like they do the whip arounds and stuff. I like being a part of that. But it’s so interesting because, like, there’s one Visual Design department summit. I think once a year. So Winnie and I, and she organizes it, it’s Burgess, Diego, and then any of the other adjuncts that are in the Visual Design department of Game Center.
And, you know, I love those, and I feel like there’s definitely full time faculty meetups that I’m assuming are more frequent. And I would love to be a part of them. If I don’t think about it to ask, the year goes by and then I’m like, “Oh, that was the last time I saw any of them.” And I think once in a while, once in a blue moon, there is like an NYU Game Center faculty night, where it’s just a hangout. And I think the last time we did that was pre-pandemic.
Yeah, I was remembering speaking with you at one of those, and I was trying to remember when that would have been. And yeah, I think you’re right, it was pre-pandemic.
But you see yeah, I would love to have more, more time. Because it feels like you’re in a silo. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing. But I do know that’s been, I wouldn’t say the forefront of the issues, but for adjuncts, they’ve mentioned, because I’ve tried to get more involved with the Union, and it’s tough. It’s tough trying to balance it because, again, I don’t just want to do all work. So I try to do other things outside of that. Even performing is actually work. That’s the thing, I love teaching. I actually do enjoy it. I do, and I do love performing, and I do love doing my work. But if I’m stretched too thin, everything is just… work. So I’m trying to give my time, if I have to do work,
I want it to be as beneficial as possible, to me and whoever else. I would love to be more involved, but yeah, then I’m gonna be hypocritical, because half the time when there is a thing, especially like a Union, like there was a Union picnic that was cancelled, I was actually happy that it got rescheduled because I wasn’t going to be able to attend. And that’s the thing, I want to be going to all of these social gatherings. And then at the same time, it’s really hard for me to attend these. It’s really hard, and a lot of them are in the middle of the day or early hours, which work for, I guess, more full-time folks. So I don’t know what the solution is for that. I mean, if they do something at 8 maybe, that would be awesome. I really want to get to know more people, fellow adjuncts. Or just spending more time with my own NYU Game Center faculty, which is my only team right now, because I’m just adjuncting for that one class. And quite frankly, that’s the only thing, I don’t want to pursue other schools and do other classes at this time. But at the same time, I don’t want to keep proposing and pushing for that, and then be like, I can’t attend any of this. So, don’t really know what the solution is to that.
Yeah, no. It’s really well put, because it is tough. And then, without even getting into compensation, we already do a lot of free labor. And so that is why we’re not invited, why there aren’t more summits and things like that is because they won’t pay us to come. And so it’s like, we want to be involved, but there’s not always the budget to actually. And then if it’s like, “Oh, it’s a volunteer thing, you can choose to come.” Then it becomes this weird, is there pressure to go, you know? And so it is complicated.
No, and you touched on the good point of compensation. That’s, I mean, this is the whole… It’s not the elephant in the room, but it connects everything. That’s why, when I was talking about grading, it’s like, I hate doing that because I want to spend a lot of time being very analytical about how I’m breaking it down. But then I realized, every single week, when I was grading homework down to the decimal, like I was like “88.5”, and I was having specific reason, and I would send feedback every single week. And I was like, this is not sustainable, because I’m being told I can’t get compensated. But then I’m like, “It’s okay. I won’t tell anyone. I’ll just be doing it.” But then I’m like, I’m not helping the whole situation of free labor, let’s end that. But then I’m not giving students the effort that I’m pleased with. So then I’m like, “Okay, no more graded homework assignments. It’s just turn-in credit. And that’s it.” And then the only two things I actually absolutely grade is the midterms and projects. And then that’s when I was like, “Oh, since I’m not doing it for the homework, I’ll provide in-depth feedback for the midterms and the finals.” And then I realized that was taking my weekends. And then at that time I was giving feedback to five artists at my job. So I’m just giving feedback day in, day out. There was a time where I wasn’t even doing art. Unfortunately. So I was teaching art, and with students. And I was doing demos. It’s all this contradictory stuff. I was on Twitter a lot, and they’re like, “Don’t do free labor.” But I was on my weekends. I was spending hours, making a demo, recording the demo. Putting it out on the drive for students. Because… I missed it. It wasn’t because, “Oh, they’re not gonna be paying me.” It’s the fact that my full-time work, I wasn’t actually doing art for like a year. And I needed to sharpen my skills somehow. And so it’s that weird limbo that you’re in of, “Okay, I don’t want to reinforce this.”
That’s why I’m at a place where I think I’m not overextending myself for the class, and I’m getting compensated. But I’m also aware that there’s a lot of other adjuncts that are not in that position. Like they’re definitely overextending themselves, and they’re trying to find solutions. And this is where bargaining comes in. And it’s hard, like I can’t imagine adjuncts who, you’re probably in that situation, where you’re commuting, and you’re not getting compensated really for the commute. I mean…
Yeah. One semester I taught at three schools. This is like Fall ‘19 or something. And I was teaching at NYU, Pratt and CUNY City Tech, just a class at each, and then doing freelance work. And the commute was the killer. I was able to swing it so that my CUNY class ran immediately before my Pratt one. So I was like, subway there, subway over to Pratt, subway back. But if they were all on separate days, it would have been hard, because then it eats up so much time. You know you’re only getting paid for like the three hours of class, but then, if it’s an hour there and back on each trip, it’s like suddenly like you’re spending six hours a week on the subway, or something like that. But yeah, it was just that one semester. In addition to having three email addresses and stuff, I was like, this is impossible. So never did that again.
[Unrelated personal discussion for a bit]
It’s also kind of the subtheme to this is that frequently you hear from faculty that they struggle with maintaining currency in their field. I mean you brought this up with the instructors you had in in college, being retired. There’s a lot of material that says how adjuncts are bad, instruction is becoming this precarious part-time job, and that there are a lot of negatives to it, and that really a lot of these should be full time positions. But part of what I’d like to articulate is like, no, it’s not the being part-time that’s the problem. Like that, actually, maybe is good, maybe it’s other stuff that that is problematic.
Yeah, actually, I would just like to add a little bit too. I forgot to mention, like at Full Sail, the program I was doing was 24 hours. It was an accelerated program, so I could have a lecture or a lab at 1 AM, 9 AM, 2 PM, 5 PM, 9 PM.
Whoa!
And these instructors are full-time. And so, even if they wanted to take on, and a lot of them did do freelance. But if they’re full-time, and I don’t think we had, they still don’t have adjuncts, and I think I brought it up, because now that they’re getting me more involved with the curriculum and stuff at Full Sail, and like they’ve asked me to weigh in and talk about certain things, because they know of my experience at NYU. And I brought up part-time and adjuncting too. Because a lot of these instructors, they had to give up their full-time to teach at Full Sail. So it was an actual career maneuver that they had when Full Sail approached them and said, “You’re amazing at what you’re doing. Would you consider teaching?” But that’s what I loved about adjuncting. They’re like, “We love what you’re doing at Avalanche, and as a game artist. Would you consider teaching with us, and not having to give up that?” A lot of teachers that I’ve talked to at Full Sail, or, not a lot, but a handful, three or four, they would love to continue. I think that’s why they were asking me like, “How do you do it?” And they realize I’m an adjunct, and some of them never even heard of the term. They didn’t know that that exists, and they didn’t know you could do it part-time. I mean, I didn’t even know until they told me like, “Would you like to teach with us?” I’m like, “I work at Avalanche,” they’re like, “You don’t have to give it up.”
It kind of gives that weird thing, of that whole ‘have your cake and eat it too’, not just from the adjunct perspective, but for the education. The institution itself. Because you’re allowing a student to see someone that is still working in the industry, and still has the capacity to do both. And faculty like, yeah, like, maybe they, you want to do something outside of work. But you’re just focusing on teaching all these classes.
100% agree.
Natalie, thank you so much for your time. This has been so great, some really great wisdom, some like really beautiful sentiments. I really feel so lucky to have gotten to talk to you. I really appreciate your time!
No, of course. I feel like we don’t, like speaking of like meetups, we don’t get to have many opportunities to talk. So I really appreciate it. And yeah, thanks for letting me ramble on like I know, I definitely rambled a lot. But yeah, I don’t get to talk about this much.
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